On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 05:43:13 GMT, "Von Fourche" <jug...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> And who is wasting bandwidth with their non funny jokes?
...Ok, that's your one "Get out of Killfile Hell Free" card now burned. Keep it up, and you're gone.
OM -- ]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
> ...Holy shit, that's IT! Guys, I've got a new crusade for us to take > up, and I'm actually serious about this one. We've got the 50th > anniversary of the Mercury program coming up, starting in 1959. We > petition the hell out of the US Mint to release a series of > commemorative dimes from 2009 to 2013 with the FDR dimes supplemented > with eight dimes honoring the Original Mercury Astronauts. One for > Gus, Al, John, Deke, Gordo, Scott, Wally and Jose. On the flip side > you put the program symbol, and a really small blurb listing the date > of the mission.
> ...And not only would the timing be historically perfect, it would be > politically as well. This would be the timeframe when the CEV starts > to go into test flight, and hopefully operational status. Used as a > promotional tie-in, these dimes would help boost manned space's > revival not in just a minor way.
>>He (and the rest of the Germans from Operation Paperclip) were honored >>quite nicely by the communities where they lived and worked. The big >>civic center in Huntsville, AL is still called the Von Braun Civic >>Center, and the MSFC headquarters building is still, to this day, >>referred to affectionately as "the Von Braun Hilton".
>It might be good to remember why exactly the Peenemunde team wanted to >fall into American hands at the end of the war; IIRC it went something >like this: "We were terrified of the Russians, we despised the French, >and the British couldn't afford us."
Oddly enough, one of the best films showing the care and feeding of a V2 is from the British Project Backfire. Possibly we weren't prepared to whitewash a war criminal, having been on the receiving end. The US was quite happy to take the boss of Unit 731, despite his habit of cutting up his victims while they were still conscious, and the torturer Klaus Barbie.
>> I don't know much about Von Braun except for what I've seen on TV. I >> have some questions about him:
>> 3. This question has really been on my mind: If Von Braun was not a >> former NAZI, you think there would be a statue of him in Washington D.C. >> or something? If Von Braun was as important as they say, it sounds like >> he should be put in the one dollar bill. I guess what I'm really asking >> is if you think he has not been honored enough because of his NAZI past?
>Von Braun received significant credit before his death in 1977. He became a >US citizen on April 14, 1955.
>In the past 10 to 15 years some vocal historians and activists have been >very critical US actions after WW2 with the German scientists and engineers. >During the WW2 some of the later V-2 rockets were built with concentration >camp and slave laborers. V1 and V2 rockets bombed London causing fear and >loss of life.
And if he had lived a few more years he would have been involved in the controversy surrounding Arthur Rudolph and probably been treated similarly, as he was no longer of use to his adopted country.
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 02:36:11 -0600, OM <om@all_spammers_WILL_burn_in_hell.com> wrote:
>...Holy shit, that's IT! Guys, I've got a new crusade for us to take >up, and I'm actually serious about this one. We've got the 50th >anniversary of the Mercury program coming up, starting in 1959. We >petition the hell out of the US Mint to release a series of >commemorative dimes from 2009 to 2013 with the FDR dimes supplemented >with eight dimes honoring the Original Mercury Astronauts. One for >Gus, Al, John, Deke, Gordo, Scott, Wally and Jose. On the flip side >you put the program symbol, and a really small blurb listing the date >of the mission.
Well, except for presidents, a person needs to have been dead for 10 years before his/her image can be on a US coin or stamp. But then, you didn't say all their portraits needed to be on the coins...
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 02:06:08 -0800, I wrote: >Well, except for presidents, a person needs to have been dead for >10 years before his/her image can be on a US coin or stamp.
I should have noted that there have been a couple of exceptions. Eleanor Roosevelt and Winston Churchill were on US stamps shortly after their deaths, but that required special acts of Congress. And the guy on the obverse of the buffalo nickel was an actual Indian chief who was still alive when the coin came out in 1913. But he was just used as a model- the coin didn't commemorate him. And I think it wasn't revealed until sometime later anyway. No actual person was depicted on a US coin until Lincoln in 1909, if memory serves.
Assuming some of the Mercury astronauts are still alive in 2009-13, getting them on a coin might be a problem. But I'm sure Congress would go along with the Jose Jimenez dime, regardless :)
I wrote: >No actual person was depicted on a US coin until Lincoln in 1909, if memory serves.
OK, I take that back- Columbus was on a commemorative half dollar (not really meant for general circulation) in 1892-3, promoting the Columbian Exposition.
<om@all_spammers_WILL_burn_in_hell.com> wrote: >On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 02:21:53 -0500, mike flugennock ><flvg3nn...@stinkers.org> wrote:
>>> ...No, but the 69-cent piece, or either the 7 or 11 dollar bills would >>> be apropos. Unless, of course, you want to resurrect the Mercury dime.
>>Welll-lll...if you wanted to bring back the Mercury Dime, wouldn't you >>have to put Al Shepard's picture on it?
>...Holy shit, that's IT! Guys, I've got a new crusade for us to take >up, and I'm actually serious about this one. We've got the 50th >anniversary of the Mercury program coming up, starting in 1959. We >petition the hell out of the US Mint to release a series of >commemorative dimes from 2009 to 2013 with the FDR dimes supplemented >with eight dimes honoring the Original Mercury Astronauts. One for >Gus, Al, John, Deke, Gordo, Scott, Wally and Jose. On the flip side >you put the program symbol, and a really small blurb listing the date >of the mission.
>...And not only would the timing be historically perfect, it would be >politically as well. This would be the timeframe when the CEV starts >to go into test flight, and hopefully operational status. Used as a >promotional tie-in, these dimes would help boost manned space's >revival not in just a minor way.
>...JO? Any comments on this?
> OM
NASA started the Mercury program on October 5, 1958. The Mercury astronauts were chosen in April 1959.
How about naming each of the reusable CEV command modules after the original 7? Name the Heavy Lift launcher after von Braun and the stick after George Low.
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 03:51:45 -0800, Dale <d...@oz.net> wrote: >On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 02:06:08 -0800, I wrote:
>>Well, except for presidents, a person needs to have been dead for >>10 years before his/her image can be on a US coin or stamp.
>I should have noted that there have been a couple of exceptions. >Eleanor Roosevelt and Winston Churchill were on US stamps >shortly after their deaths, but that required special acts of Congress. >And the guy on the obverse of the buffalo nickel was an actual Indian >chief who was still alive when the coin came out in 1913. But he was >just used as a model- the coin didn't commemorate him. And I think >it wasn't revealed until sometime later anyway. No actual person was >depicted on a US coin until Lincoln in 1909, if memory serves.
>Assuming some of the Mercury astronauts are still alive in 2009-13, >getting them on a coin might be a problem. But I'm sure Congress >would go along with the Jose Jimenez dime, regardless :)
>Dale
Eunice Shriver (JFK's sister) was on the 1995 Special Olympics Silver Dollar issued by the U.S. Mint.
OK, I've thought of a couple of other exceptions to the "10 years dead" rule, at least on postage stamps- Dag Hammarskjold in 1962 and Walt Disney in 1968. But even though the 1965 Gemini stamp pair obviously depicted Ed White doing his spacewalk and the Apollo 11 stamp showed Armstrong stepping onto the moon, you can't see though their visors, and that was intentional...
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 04:34:25 -0800, Rusty <reuben_barton@no_spam_y_a_h_o_o_.com> wrote:
>Eunice Shriver (JFK's sister) was on the 1995 Special Olympics Silver >Dollar issued by the U.S. Mint.
Hmmm. Maybe there's an exception for Kennedys? :) They make scads of commemorative coins as fund raisers and to sell to collectors. I wouldn't put them in the same category as regular issues. They do have denominations such as a dollar, but they aren't sold at face value. But good point....
> It might be good to remember why exactly the Peenemunde team wanted to > fall into American hands at the end of the war; IIRC it went something > like this: "We were terrified of the Russians, we despised the French, > and the British couldn't afford us." > That's not exactly seeing the glow of Liberty's torch. > I think they were quite willing to jump into bed with anybody who > wouldn't enslave them and would give them the money to build rockets.
Well, I think the great Sage Tom Lehrer said it best: "A man whose allegiance Is ruled by expedience."
Gather 'round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun, A man whose allegiance Is ruled by expedience. Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown, "Ha, Nazi, Schmazi," says Wernher von Braun.
Don't say that he's hypocritical, Say rather that he's apolitical. "Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun.
Some have harsh words for this man of renown, But some think our attitude Should be one of gratitude, Like the widows and cripples in old London town, Who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun.
You too may be a big hero, Once you've learned to count backwards to zero. "In German oder English I know how to count down, Und I'm learning Chinese!" says Wernher von Braun.
> Still, every time I find myself checking out the Luft'46 site, it's > pretty amazing -- even a bit scary -- to see how many of the German > jet designs in development and in service at the time look as if they > were "separated at birth" from many US and Russian designs from the > '50s and even later. I've seen designs there from the mid'40s that > look like dead ringers for the F86 or MiG15; hell, I've seen a 1940s > German jet proposal that appears to have been separated at birth from > the Warthog.
Dale wrote: >Well, except for presidents, a person needs to have been dead for >10 years before his/her image can be on a US coin or stamp. But >then, you didn't say all their portraits needed to be on the coins...
We have to start thinking outside the box on this. Okay... step one... we hunt down and kill all the surviving Mercury astronauts...and any chimps also. The sooner they're all dead, the sooner the coins can come out. ;-)
In message <k5qkr1t8vaed2qv2ln7hu1lmfjgi90r...@4ax.com> Rusty <reuben_barton@no_spam_y_a_h_o_o_.com> wrote:
> How about naming each of the reusable CEV command modules after the > original 7? Name the Heavy Lift launcher after von Braun and the stick > after George Low.
And the CEV Grissom could be painted green, the CEV Shepherd red and CEV Cooper yellow...
> Von Fourche wrote: >> I don't know much about Von Braun except for what I've seen on TV. I >> have some questions about him:
>> 1. How much credit does he get for the development of NASA? Was he >> the driving force? If he was not around back then would NASA have >> progressed at a much slower and more dangerous rate?
> He gets no credit for the 'development' of NASA. He was involved in a > major section of NASA, and was an intergral member in achieving the lunar > landings, but he was a part of NASA - not its creator.
>> 2. How much credit does he get for getting Americans to the Moon? >> If I said he single handedly got the U.S. to the Moon would that be a big >> exaggeration or mostly correct?
> His boosters certainly enabled an achievable programme to be designed; > without them the landings would probably have taken a lot longer. The > booster, however, is not the only thing.
> There were many people involved in the effort. What about Max Faget? Von > Braun was a talented man, and he deserves credit - but not sole credit. > So I'd have to say the statement is wrong.
>> 3. This question has really been on my mind: If Von Braun was not a >> former NAZI, you think there would be a statue of him in Washington D.C. >> or something? If Von Braun was as important as they say, it sounds like >> he should be put in the one dollar bill. I guess what I'm really asking >> is if you think he has not been honored enough because of his NASI past?
> Difficult. I don't believe he was a Nazi, but I think it's fair to say > he'd use any means available to him in order to further his dreams. If > that meant a pact with the devil, so be it - as long as he got the > resources that he needed.
> I think that most every credible history of the US space programme gives > Von Braun his due. I think there are others who have been forgotten, or > never properly got their kudos. So again, I think he has been honoured > enough, and his association with the Nazis has affected that honouring to > only a small degree.
Lets take the general public who knows really nothing about NASA or space exploration. They probably have heard of Armstrong and Glenn. Also Christa McAuliffe and Shepard. Maybe a few others. Maybe one or two Russians. But when it comes to the actual building of NASA and the people behind it, no names are known to the general public. The most popular seems to be Von Braun.
So, how did Von Braun get more famous than the others? Was he a great self promoter?
>> Still, every time I find myself checking out the Luft'46 site, it's >> pretty amazing -- even a bit scary -- to see how many of the German >> jet designs in development and in service at the time look as if they >> were "separated at birth" from many US and Russian designs from the >> '50s and even later. I've seen designs there from the mid'40s that >> look like dead ringers for the F86 or MiG15; hell, I've seen a 1940s >> German jet proposal that appears to have been separated at birth from >> the Warthog.
Schweet. This Gareth Hector guy does some of the best art on there, very realistic-looking, like a real working plane. I especially like his rendition of the TA183 ditched in the snow.
Y'know, I sometimes check out these old B&V concepts and ask myself just what advantage they were supposed to have -- or if they were just gratuitously weird. I wonder if B&V would have bothered realizing these ideas if they had the kind of digital/virtual tools that would let them determine what kind of handling characteristics these strange asymmetrical beasts would have.
--
.
"Though I could not caution all, I yet may warn a few: Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools!"
--grateful dead. _______________________________________________________________ Mike Flugennock, flugennock at sinkers dot org "Mikey'zine": dubya dubya dubya dot sinkers dot org
> 1. How much credit does he get for the development of NASA? Was he the >driving force?
Specifically: Von Braun was firmly established in the US military missile program years before NASA was thrown together, explicitly as a *civilian* organization, in the winter of 1957-58. He and his Huntsville team were then transferred from Army to NASA, but he had little to do with the political choices that created NASA. It;s possible he might have preferred that the space race be run under the military auspices he'd been used to since 1933, but if so he was far too experienced and smooth a navigator of governmental turf wars to say so.
More generally: he was extremely influential from 1948 on, along with Willy Ley, in spreading the gospel of space exploration (traceable to Oberth's German circle in the 1920s) in the US, not just among government rocketeers but to a public that ranged from Chamber of Commerce lunches to Disney television audiences in the tens of millions. So beyond his specific role in the space race, he had done a lot to create the climate of opinion and expectations in which it took off.
"Von Fourche" <jug...@hotmail.com> wrote: > So, how did Von Braun get more famous than the others? Was he a great >self promoter?
Well, yes -- but there was no one else who had his combination of talents as engineer, engineering manager/motivator, political operator, and space "evangelist" to the public.
<Quid...@delespana.org> wrote: >"Von Douche" <jug...@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> Better yet, I'll kill file you. Bye Bye.
...What is it with these newbies these days? Do they *all* have suicidal tendencies that need to be expressed?
><plonk>. Loser.
...Yeah, he is. Hope Bbo Hallr loves his type of company down there in Killfile Hell.
OM -- ]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
>> Well, except for presidents, a person needs to have been dead for >> 10 years before his/her image can be on a US coin or stamp. But then, >> you didn't say all their portraits needed to be on the coins...
> We have to start thinking outside the box on this. > Okay... step one... we hunt down and kill all the surviving Mercury > astronauts...and any chimps also. > The sooner they're all dead, the sooner the coins can come out. ;-)
Dude. I am _not_ carrying any change in my pockets with a picture of a friggin' _chimp_ on it. The "chimp" in the White House is bad enough.
Iirc, three of the Original Seven are no longer with us, but only Grissom's been dead long enough to be on a coin or stamp. I mean, c'mon; they've done Elvis, why _not_ Gus on the "New Mercury Dime"? Or, perhaps honor the entire A1 crew by striking a new dollar coin; I'm thinking that'd be the only coin large enough to fit them all on and still have them recognizable. Maybe a stamp would work better to honor the A1 crew.
Of course, sadly, we're approaching the 20th anniversary of the Challenger tragedy; I'm surprised _they_ haven't been so honored.
It'd be a refreshing change, imho, from being saddled with coins and currency bearing mostly likenesses of entirely useless people, a.k.a. politicians. It'd be nice to have the likeness of an actual real _hero_ on the money for a change.
I thought Susan B. Anthony was a helluvan idea, except I think that one was fucked up _on_purpose_.
And iirc, wasn't there a re-issue of the JFK half-dollar with a reverse side design based on the Apollo 11 mission patch? (Never mind that they had to break the ten-year rule for the JFK half-dollar to begin with).
So, what do we want for the _reverse_ side of our Gus Grissom Mercury Dime?
--
.
"Though I could not caution all, I yet may warn a few: Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools!"
--grateful dead. _______________________________________________________________ Mike Flugennock, flugennock at sinkers dot org "Mikey'zine": dubya dubya dubya dot sinkers dot org
Monte Davis wrote: > "Von Fourche" <jug...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> So, how did Von Braun get more famous than the others? Was he a great >>self promoter?
> Well, yes -- but there was no one else who had his combination of > talents as engineer, engineering manager/motivator, political > operator, and space "evangelist" to the public.
>>> Well, except for presidents, a person needs to have been dead for >>> 10 years before his/her image can be on a US coin or stamp. But then, >>> you didn't say all their portraits needed to be on the coins...
>> We have to start thinking outside the box on this. >> Okay... step one... we hunt down and kill all the surviving Mercury >> astronauts...and any chimps also. >> The sooner they're all dead, the sooner the coins can come out. ;-)
> Dude. I am _not_ carrying any change in my pockets with a picture of a > friggin' _chimp_ on it. The "chimp" in the White House is bad enough.
> Iirc, three of the Original Seven are no longer with us, but only > Grissom's been dead long enough to be on a coin or stamp. I mean, c'mon; > they've done Elvis, why _not_ Gus on the "New Mercury Dime"? Or, perhaps > honor the entire A1 crew by striking a new dollar coin; I'm thinking > that'd be the only coin large enough to fit them all on and still have > them recognizable. Maybe a stamp would work better to honor the A1 crew.
> Of course, sadly, we're approaching the 20th anniversary of the > Challenger tragedy; I'm surprised _they_ haven't been so honored.
> It'd be a refreshing change, imho, from being saddled with coins and > currency bearing mostly likenesses of entirely useless people, a.k.a. > politicians. It'd be nice to have the likeness of an actual real _hero_ > on the money for a change.
> I thought Susan B. Anthony was a helluvan idea, except I think that one > was fucked up _on_purpose_.
> And iirc, wasn't there a re-issue of the JFK half-dollar with a reverse > side design based on the Apollo 11 mission patch? (Never mind that they > had to break the ten-year rule for the JFK half-dollar to begin with).
> So, what do we want for the _reverse_ side of our Gus Grissom Mercury Dime?
That's easy - a stylized Mercury capsule above the earth in the background.
|
